| |
Main
Date: 29 Mar 2007 09:24:44
From:
Subject: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
JP outyourbackdoor.com
|
|
| |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 08:13:58
From: cramersec@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
On Mar 29, 12:24 pm, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
> It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
> hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
> so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
> the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
> max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
> be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
> JP outyourbackdoor.com
The sweep (aka slash, twist-and-slice, screw) roll in the Kent Ford
video _The Kayak Roll_ uses a lot of rotation and ends up rotated back
about 45 degrees but not leaned back very much.
Chris Spelius has posted some good videos that show a variety of
rolls. He does one of the best jobs I've seen of explaining the body
mechanics behind them.
http://www.exchile.com/KayakSchoolRollIdentifier.htm
One thing I tell people that seems to help is that the goal of your
roll should not be to get your torso out of the water. Leave it there
as long as possible and concentrate on getting the boat upright with
your knee.
Oops, I see that unclefuzzy has already posted the Spelius link. OK, I
second that.
Steve
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 09:26:53
From: Doc McClenny
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
On Apr 3, 9:13 am, "Davej" <galt...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 8:21 am, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > Sea kayak.
>
> > I'm just trying to learn how to roll my racy, roundy, hard-to-roll sea
> > kayak that constrains much usual body action (and hull behavior)
> > that's helpful for rolling (high sides, high back, narrow, round
> > hull).
>
> Well, laying back is commonly done, and it apparently is of no concern
> to many people. I'm just in paranoid ww mode having just bounced
> though some very low rocky water. If you have a good skull you might
> also experiment with something I find interesting -- ending a roll
> with a flurry of skulls.
Laying back to lower the center of gravity is caused by the failure of
the primary part of the roll to get the center of gravity safely over
the center of the boat.
The negative effect of leaning back is that it forces both knees to
pull "upward', which locks the lower torso and forces the arms to do
the roll completion, which is why people end up having to scull
madly. This is the classic "keep your head down" advice, which is
pretty much impossible to follow without controlling what the knees
are doing - if the head is coming up it is because both knees are
pulling up, which forces the head into an upright position. You
really want to end up upright, centered, and ready to take a stroke,
not on your back admiring the clouds :).
I do a sweep roll with an exaggerated arm rollup in big, round boats -
you need to roll pretty slowly to get the mass of the boat time to get
moving and to avoid rolling up and the having your momentum from
keeping you from flipping to the other side - going straight from a
roll into a stroke will keep you going and stable. The sweep works
better than the C-to-C because the buildup of the force on the paddle
blade is more gradual, which lets the roll start more slowly to let a
bigger boat get moving. The roll will feel different than a flatter
boat, since the early part of the roll will be smoother and you don't
have the crutch of the flat hull stability at the end.
(and yes, I have spent way too much time analyzing rolls )
Doc McClenny
|
| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 18:45:00
From: Michael Daly
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Doc McClenny wrote:
> Laying back to lower the center of gravity is caused by the failure of
> the primary part of the roll to get the center of gravity safely over
> the center of the boat.
Laying back to lower the centre of gravity has nothing whatsoever to do
with any failure.
> The negative effect of leaning back is that it forces both knees to
> pull "upward', which locks the lower torso and forces the arms to do
> the roll completion, which is why people end up having to scull
> madly.
If they have to scull madly, it has nothing to do with their knees. If
they are using their arms to complete the roll, they are doing it wrong.
A No-Hands-Roll is done with a layback and that uses neither paddle
nor arms to complete the roll.
> You
> really want to end up upright, centered, and ready to take a stroke,
> not on your back admiring the clouds :).
When I do layback rolls, I do not end up admiring the clouds. It sounds
to me that you don't really understand the proper way to do some of
these layback rolls.
There is not just one or two rolls. There are at least a hundred and
they all have advantages and disadvantages. To claim that WW kayakers
are the ones who do it right just because they've been doing a C-C for a
few decades doesn't make hundreds of years of Inuit rolling techniques
wrong.
Mike
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 12:02:17
From: Davej
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
On Apr 3, 10:08 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid > wrote:
> Per Davej:
>
> > If you have a good skull you might
> >also experiment with something I find interesting -- ending a roll
> >with a flurry of skulls.
>
> Skull????? Who has more than one? I've heard of a two-headed frog once... but
> never a multi-headed person.
>
Skull, scull, well, I can't spell Schuylkill either.;-(
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 07:13:26
From: Davej
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
On Apr 2, 8:21 am, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
> [...]
> Sea kayak.
>
> I'm just trying to learn how to roll my racy, roundy, hard-to-roll sea
> kayak that constrains much usual body action (and hull behavior)
> that's helpful for rolling (high sides, high back, narrow, round
> hull).
>
Well, laying back is commonly done, and it apparently is of no concern
to many people. I'm just in paranoid ww mode having just bounced
though some very low rocky water. If you have a good skull you might
also experiment with something I find interesting -- ending a roll
with a flurry of skulls.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 11:08:43
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Per Davej:
> If you have a good skull you might
>also experiment with something I find interesting -- ending a roll
>with a flurry of skulls.
Skull????? Who has more than one? I've heard of a two-headed frog once... but
never a multi-headed person.
--
PeteCresswell
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 06:21:53
From:
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Davej wrote:
[ ]
> Laying back is a bad habit if you ever plan to do any ww.
I don't.
Sea kayak.
I'm just trying to learn how to roll my racy, roundy, hard-to-roll sea
kayak that constrains much usual body action (and hull behavior)
that's helpful for rolling (high sides, high back, narrow, round
hull).
But never say never! If I ever moved to a WW river/area, who knows.
--JP
|
| |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 19:11:40
From: Davej
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
On Apr 1, 3:00 pm, Brian Nystrom <brian.nyst...@verizon.net > wrote:
> Davej wrote:
> > Laying back is a bad habit if you ever plan to do any ww.
>
> That's an old myth that needs to die. If you look at the mechanics of
> ANY layback roll, there is NEVER a point where you're on the aft deck
> facing downward. By the time you actually lay back, you're almost out of
> the water. The layback is strictly to get your center of gravity lower,
> making it easier to finish the roll. The most dangerous roll is the
> one that fails and dumps you back into the water. Paddlers should use
> the roll they're most proficient at.
In ww you don't want your face exposed to impact with rocks. Laying
back exposes your face if the roll fails or if the boat is immediately
flipped again. The most dangerous roll is the one that gets you
injured so that you panic.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 06:19:21
From: Tim McTeague
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
>> Davej wrote:
>
> In ww you don't want your face exposed to impact with rocks. Laying
> back exposes your face if the roll fails or if the boat is immediately
> flipped again. The most dangerous roll is the one that gets you
> injured so that you panic.
>
From none other than Eric Jackson. Are you telling HIM that he does not
know the correct WW roll?
"Rolling where you come up on the back deck is much easier and more likely
to be successful than a roll on your front deck. (no space for discussion on
this subject here, sorry). When you come up on your back deck you are in a
good position to do an additional brace to keep you up or finish the roll
off. When forward, you are much more likely to fall back in the water."
http://www.jacksonkayak.com/techniquesjk/technique.cfm?technique=rolling
Tim McTeague
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 11:38:27
From: Michael Daly
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Tim McTeague wrote:
> From none other than Eric Jackson. Are you telling HIM that he does not
> know the correct WW roll?
>
> "Rolling where you come up on the back deck is much easier and more likely
> to be successful than a roll on your front deck. (no space for discussion on
> this subject here, sorry). When you come up on your back deck you are in a
> good position to do an additional brace to keep you up or finish the roll
> off. When forward, you are much more likely to fall back in the water."
>
> http://www.jacksonkayak.com/techniquesjk/technique.cfm?technique=rolling
And then, of course, there's the Rodeo Roll, which does exactly what the
previous poster claimed was dangerous.
Mike
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 12:12:25
From: Brian Nystrom
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Tim McTeague wrote:
>>> Davej wrote:
>
>> In ww you don't want your face exposed to impact with rocks. Laying
>> back exposes your face if the roll fails or if the boat is immediately
>> flipped again. The most dangerous roll is the one that gets you
>> injured so that you panic.
>>
>
> From none other than Eric Jackson. Are you telling HIM that he does not
> know the correct WW roll?
>
> "Rolling where you come up on the back deck is much easier and more likely
> to be successful than a roll on your front deck. (no space for discussion on
> this subject here, sorry). When you come up on your back deck you are in a
> good position to do an additional brace to keep you up or finish the roll
> off. When forward, you are much more likely to fall back in the water."
>
> http://www.jacksonkayak.com/techniquesjk/technique.cfm?technique=rolling
I rest my case.
|
| |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 08:00:51
From: Davej
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
On Mar 29, 11:24 am, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
> It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
> hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
> so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
> the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
> max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
> be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
> JP outyourbackdoor.com
Laying back is a bad habit if you ever plan to do any ww. I would say
just practice your roll and if necessary learn to end a failed roll
with a skull.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 20:00:48
From: Brian Nystrom
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Davej wrote:
> Laying back is a bad habit if you ever plan to do any ww.
That's an old myth that needs to die. If you look at the mechanics of
ANY layback roll, there is NEVER a point where you're on the aft deck
facing downward. By the time you actually lay back, you're almost out of
the water. The layback is strictly to get your center of gravity lower,
making it easier to finish the roll. The most dangerous roll is the
one that fails and dumps you back into the water. Paddlers should use
the roll they're most proficient at.
|
| |
Date: 31 Mar 2007 20:23:57
From: Steve Cramer
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Buy Kent Ford's video _The Kayak Roll_. He shows a sweep roll that you
end up sitting mostly upright, rotated toward the working blade. It
should work very well with your boat. There's noting critical about
leaning back if you can accomplish the same ting without it. It's also
better than the C-to-C.
Steve
JeffOYB@hotmail.com wrote:
> I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
> It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
> hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
> so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
> the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
> max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
> be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
> JP outyourbackdoor.com
>
|
| |
Date: 31 Mar 2007 05:49:42
From:
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
John Fereira wrote:
> JeffOYB@hotmail.com wrote in news:1175259291.833257.163650
> @l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Thanks for the tips!
> >
> > I've been looking at some of these online roll-vid's and info. I can't
> > quite follow all the text how-to yet, with the terms. The vid's help.
> >
> > I'm a bit concerned that examples use whitewater boats. My boat has a
> > round hull and high sides, too.
>
> What kind of boat are you talking about.
I detailed the boat in the first post but maybe folks aren't familiar
with it. It's a narrow, round hull racing sea kayak---patterened after
a Seda Glider. 19 feet long, like about 20" wide. Totally round hull.
[ ]
> A C-C will be easier to learn than a front deck roll. Start first by using
> someone elses boat or the side of a pool to practice a hip snap, that is,
> learn how to rotate the boat under you before you bring your head out of the
> water.
I can do that already to a strong extent but my whole show hasn't come
together yet. I think it partly relates to having such high sides and
rear and a hull that doesn't "flop" back upright.
I think I've been using the C-C. I'll keep trying---dryland
especially.
--JP
|
| |
Date: 30 Mar 2007 05:54:51
From:
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Thanks for the tips!
I've been looking at some of these online roll-vid's and info. I can't
quite follow all the text how-to yet, with the terms. The vid's help.
I'm a bit concerned that examples use whitewater boats. My boat has a
round hull and high sides, too.
I do have best luck with the "take head out of water last" idea. I'll
just keep trying to put all the basics together. And I'll study C-C
more and study front deck roll, too.
I'll fiddle with dryland practice as well.
--JP
|
| | |
Date: 31 Mar 2007 12:11:37
From: John Fereira
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
JeffOYB@hotmail.com wrote in news:1175259291.833257.163650
@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
> Thanks for the tips!
>
> I've been looking at some of these online roll-vid's and info. I can't
> quite follow all the text how-to yet, with the terms. The vid's help.
>
> I'm a bit concerned that examples use whitewater boats. My boat has a
> round hull and high sides, too.
What kind of boat are you talking about. Some whitewater boats can be more
forgiving of poor technique but with the right technique you should be able
to learn to roll your boat. You'll often see rolling videos in ww boats
because their easier to get into a small pool where rolling "pool sessions"
often take place. You should be more concerned that those demonstrating the
rolls already know how to roll and can get away with marginal technique
because they can quickly compensate and produce a successful roll. In the
hybrid videos they briefly mention a "sweep to C" but the examples don't
really demonstrate it well. I find that a "sweep to C" roll works well if
when rolling a boat with a high rear deck.
>
> I do have best luck with the "take head out of water last" idea. I'll
> just keep trying to put all the basics together. And I'll study C-C
> more and study front deck roll, too.
A C-C will be easier to learn than a front deck roll. Start first by using
someone elses boat or the side of a pool to practice a hip snap, that is,
learn how to rotate the boat under you before you bring your head out of the
water.
|
| |
Date: 29 Mar 2007 17:43:21
From: unclefuzzy
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
On Mar 29, 12:24 pm, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
> It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
> hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
> so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
> the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
> max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
> be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
> JP outyourbackdoor.com
It might be worthwhile checking out the videos at
http://www.exchile.com/KayakSchoolRollIdentifier.htm.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Mar 2007 22:28:58
From: Al K
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
unclefuzzy wrote:
> On Mar 29, 12:24 pm, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
>> It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
>> hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
>> so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
>> the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
>> max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
>> be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
>> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
>> JP outyourbackdoor.com
>
> It might be worthwhile checking out the videos at
> http://www.exchile.com/KayakSchoolRollIdentifier.htm.
>
>
Hi Unclefuzy,
Great videos by Chris Spelius showing all types of rolls including
C-to-C which can be done in a high rear deck or seat, which many sea
kayaks have. Thanks for link.
Al K
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Mar 2007 11:40:55
From: Brian Nystrom
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Al K wrote:
> unclefuzzy wrote:
>> On Mar 29, 12:24 pm, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
>>> It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
>>> hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
>>> so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
>>> the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
>>> max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
>>> be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
>>> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
>>> JP outyourbackdoor.com
>>
>> It might be worthwhile checking out the videos at
>> http://www.exchile.com/KayakSchoolRollIdentifier.htm.
>>
>>
> Hi Unclefuzy,
>
> Great videos by Chris Spelius showing all types of rolls including
> C-to-C which can be done in a high rear deck or seat, which many sea
> kayaks have. Thanks for link.
Although I'm not a fan of the C-to-C roll, in this case, it's probably
your best bet. The keys to it are the timing of the hip snap and making
sure that your head comes up last.
|
| | | | |
Date: 30 Mar 2007 08:17:52
From: Al K
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Al K wrote:
>> unclefuzzy wrote:
>>> On Mar 29, 12:24 pm, Jeff...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> I have a woodstrip racing sea kayak patterned after the Seda Glider.
>>>> It has a really high back deck (cockpit combing). I can't lean back
>>>> hardly at all in it. I've been trying to learn how to roll it. So far,
>>>> so shaky. I wish I could get my C of G lower as my torso comes out of
>>>> the water but due to the rear deck my CoG is working against me at its
>>>> max leverage. Rats. Is there another kind of roll out there that might
>>>> be EASY with a high rear deck? Any links to pics, info? Maybe I could
>>>> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up? Thanks! --
>>>> JP outyourbackdoor.com
>>>
>>> It might be worthwhile checking out the videos at
>>> http://www.exchile.com/KayakSchoolRollIdentifier.htm.
>>>
>>>
>> Hi Unclefuzy,
>>
>> Great videos by Chris Spelius showing all types of rolls including
>> C-to-C which can be done in a high rear deck or seat, which many sea
>> kayaks have. Thanks for link.
>
> Although I'm not a fan of the C-to-C roll, in this case, it's probably
> your best bet. The keys to it are the timing of the hip snap and making
> sure that your head comes up last.
Hi Brian,
Another roll not requiring going to the back deck is the front deck
roll. In the videos, the front deck roll is shown in the Hybrid Roll
video. (These videos are easily viewed using the YouTube option if you
have a high-speed connection.) Also a hybrid roll where you do not go
way back will work on high back kayaks.
Al K
|
| |
Date: 29 Mar 2007 12:43:23
From: Michael Daly
Subject: Re: Rolling a sea-kayak with HIGH rear deck?
|
JeffOYB@hotmail.com wrote:
> Is there another kind of roll out there that might
> be EASY with a high rear deck?
Brace rolls like the C-C will not require a layback....
> Maybe I could
> somehow reverse my sweep and tuck back forward as I come up?
as would forward finishing rolls.
> Any links to pics, info?
<http://greatlakeskayaker.ca/kayakRollingXref.htm >
Mike
|
|
