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Date: 18 Dec 2006 10:00:50
From: galt_57@hotmail.com
Subject: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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I am a newbie and have mostly been paddling a long plastic boat on flat
water, but recently I got to try out a few ww boats and have a basic
question. My long boat of course coasts in a straight line when I stop
paddling. To me it seems the ww boats ride up on their bow wave so that
they have a great tendancy to turn and when you stop paddling you tend
to veer off sideways and sort of slosh to a stop, and not just flat
bottoms but also "displacement hulls" like the RPM which have rounded
bottoms. Is this a universal characteristic of ww boats? Do all ww
boats of whatever length ride up on their bow waves in this manner and
is it due to length or design? What are the fastest ww boats on
flatwater? Thanks.
Dave
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 07:22:55
From: JohnKuthe
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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Michael Daly wrote:
> JohnKuthe wrote:
>
> > I dunno what the longest WW boat ever was, but I'd bet about 14 feet.
>
> Kayakers have done WW in folding kayaks that were 16' at least. That was a long
> rime ago, of course.
I wanted to do the downriver race on our local WW river in a 17 ft
Wilderness Systems "Sirocco", but it's not a WW boat. I believe the
person asking the question was asking what's the longest boat that was
made for WW, not what's the longest boat that's ever been used on WW. I
think the Mirage was a 14ft WW boat, but I can't remember who made it.
I just remember a guy in our club having one, and man, was that sucker
a long boat, even by 15 years-ago standards!
John Kuthe...
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Date: 21 Dec 2006 21:42:42
From: Steve Cramer
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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JohnKuthe wrote:
> Michael Daly wrote:
>> JohnKuthe wrote:
>>
>>> I dunno what the longest WW boat ever was, but I'd bet about 14 feet.
>> Kayakers have done WW in folding kayaks that were 16' at least. That was a long
>> rime ago, of course.
>
> I wanted to do the downriver race on our local WW river in a 17 ft
> Wilderness Systems "Sirocco", but it's not a WW boat. I believe the
> person asking the question was asking what's the longest boat that was
> made for WW, not what's the longest boat that's ever been used on WW. I
> think the Mirage was a 14ft WW boat, but I can't remember who made it.
> I just remember a guy in our club having one, and man, was that sucker
> a long boat, even by 15 years-ago standards!
The Mirage was 13" and a little change, probably almost esactly 4
meters, which, because of the Olympic standard, seems to have been the
early view of the "right" length for a boat to be.
Tom Johnson designed the first plastic WW kayak, the Holoform
Riverchaser. I don't have anything to verify it, but seeing as how he
was the coach of the 1972 Olympic team, I'll bet it was 4 meters long.
Steve
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 20:54:02
From: JohnKuthe
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
> Michael Daly wrote:
> > galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I guess I don't know what is happening, but it feels like the
> > > boat is riding up on the bow wave, or planeing at an angle, and then
> > > when you stop paddling it seems to want to turn, as if it is sliding
> > > back off the bow wave, and the bow seems to drop.
> >
> > That isn't the bow wave that's doing that. Kayaks with rounded hulls and
> > upturned sterns (like WW kayaks) tend to have longitudinal instability. Once
> > they start to turn, they continue - forcefully! The trick is to learn to
> > control the kayak so that it doesn't start to turn unless you want it to. That
> > means constant minor corrections to the direction of travel. After a while it
> > gets natural and you don't think about it.
> >
> > I've done a few downriver races in an old Pirouette. When I first got that
> > kayak, I couldn't paddle 50m without it turning off one way or the other. Now I
> > can paddle 10km or so with only a few lapses causing spins.
> >
>
> Isn't a Crossfire longer than a Pirouette? What is the longest ww boat
> that was ever made?
A Crossfire's a little longer than a Pirouette, but the Crossfire's
also got a little more rocker than the Pirouette, which makes it turn.
Both are whitewater boats, and are "built to turn in a circle". And if
given free reign, will too! Which is what happens when you stop
steering it straight (which you have to do with every stroke to make it
look like it's going in a straight line!)
I dunno what the longest WW boat ever was, but I'd bet about 14 feet.
John Kuthe...
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 00:57:24
From: Michael Daly
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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JohnKuthe wrote:
> I dunno what the longest WW boat ever was, but I'd bet about 14 feet.
Kayakers have done WW in folding kayaks that were 16' at least. That was a long
rime ago, of course.
The length of the kayak is not uniquely relevant; you have to consider the
rocker, the hull shape, etc. Nothing in hydrodynamics reduces to one dimension
unless it's generally useless information.
Mike
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 15:00:28
From: galt_57@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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Michael Daly wrote:
> galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Well, I guess I don't know what is happening, but it feels like the
> > boat is riding up on the bow wave, or planeing at an angle, and then
> > when you stop paddling it seems to want to turn, as if it is sliding
> > back off the bow wave, and the bow seems to drop.
>
> That isn't the bow wave that's doing that. Kayaks with rounded hulls and
> upturned sterns (like WW kayaks) tend to have longitudinal instability. Once
> they start to turn, they continue - forcefully! The trick is to learn to
> control the kayak so that it doesn't start to turn unless you want it to. That
> means constant minor corrections to the direction of travel. After a while it
> gets natural and you don't think about it.
>
> I've done a few downriver races in an old Pirouette. When I first got that
> kayak, I couldn't paddle 50m without it turning off one way or the other. Now I
> can paddle 10km or so with only a few lapses causing spins.
>
Isn't a Crossfire longer than a Pirouette? What is the longest ww boat
that was ever made?
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:26:10
From: galt_57@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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cramersec@gmail.com wrote:
> This is a universal characteristic of all boats, but is more pronounced
> with WW boats, since they are made to be "loose". Generally, longer
> waterlines/less rocker will track better. If you already have an old WW
> boat to use, you could add a skeg to make it track better.
>
> Frankly, if you're not paddling WW and you don't want to use a touring
> boat, you may be better off in a rec boat. The Pungos track very well,
> for example. If you really want a WW boat, maybe a Pirouette.
>
> BTW, WW boats don't "ride up on their bow waves." The bow wave is
> formed by water pushed ahead and to the side of the boat. When you stop
> pushing, it goes away, but the boat keeps moving, per Newton.
Well, I guess I don't know what is happening, but it feels like the
boat is riding up on the bow wave, or planeing at an angle, and then
when you stop paddling it seems to want to turn, as if it is sliding
back off the bow wave, and the bow seems to drop.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 15:19:21
From: Michael Daly
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
> Well, I guess I don't know what is happening, but it feels like the
> boat is riding up on the bow wave, or planeing at an angle, and then
> when you stop paddling it seems to want to turn, as if it is sliding
> back off the bow wave, and the bow seems to drop.
That isn't the bow wave that's doing that. Kayaks with rounded hulls and
upturned sterns (like WW kayaks) tend to have longitudinal instability. Once
they start to turn, they continue - forcefully! The trick is to learn to
control the kayak so that it doesn't start to turn unless you want it to. That
means constant minor corrections to the direction of travel. After a while it
gets natural and you don't think about it.
I've done a few downriver races in an old Pirouette. When I first got that
kayak, I couldn't paddle 50m without it turning off one way or the other. Now I
can paddle 10km or so with only a few lapses causing spins.
Mike
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 07:36:25
From: cramersec@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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This is a universal characteristic of all boats, but is more pronounced
with WW boats, since they are made to be "loose". Generally, longer
waterlines/less rocker will track better. If you already have an old WW
boat to use, you could add a skeg to make it track better.
Frankly, if you're not paddling WW and you don't want to use a touring
boat, you may be better off in a rec boat. The Pungos track very well,
for example. If you really want a WW boat, maybe a Pirouette.
BTW, WW boats don't "ride up on their bow waves." The bow wave is
formed by water pushed ahead and to the side of the boat. When you stop
pushing, it goes away, but the boat keeps moving, per Newton.
Steve
On Dec 18, 1:00 pm, "galt...@hotmail.com" <galt...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> To me it seems the ww boats ride up on their bow wave so that
> they have a great tendancy to turn and when you stop paddling you tend
> to veer off sideways and sort of slosh to a stop, and not just flat
> bottoms but also "displacement hulls" like the RPM which have rounded
> bottoms. Is this a universal characteristic of ww boats? Do all ww
> boats of whatever length ride up on their bow waves in this manner and
> is it due to length or design? What are the fastest ww boats on
> flatwater? Thanks.
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 20:44:27
From: Grip
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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That would be the case. WW boats are made to manuever quickly rather than
track straight. But this is a very good thing. WW paddling and it's craft
have a much harder ( varying of course from person to person ) learning
curve at first. After you\me\anyone learns to paddle and gets experience, we
can track any boat equally well. I would have to say the fastest WW boats
are the older longer displacement hulled craft.
<galt_57@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166464850.525930.241730@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> I am a newbie and have mostly been paddling a long plastic boat on flat
> water, but recently I got to try out a few ww boats and have a basic
> question. My long boat of course coasts in a straight line when I stop
> paddling. To me it seems the ww boats ride up on their bow wave so that
> they have a great tendancy to turn and when you stop paddling you tend
> to veer off sideways and sort of slosh to a stop, and not just flat
> bottoms but also "displacement hulls" like the RPM which have rounded
> bottoms. Is this a universal characteristic of ww boats? Do all ww
> boats of whatever length ride up on their bow waves in this manner and
> is it due to length or design? What are the fastest ww boats on
> flatwater? Thanks.
>
> Dave
>
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 11:41:05
From: galt_57@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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Brian Nystrom wrote:
> galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I am a newbie and have mostly been paddling a long plastic boat on flat
> > water, but recently I got to try out a few ww boats and have a basic
> > question. My long boat of course coasts in a straight line when I stop
> > paddling. To me it seems the ww boats ride up on their bow wave so that
> > they have a great tendancy to turn and when you stop paddling you tend
> > to veer off sideways and sort of slosh to a stop, and not just flat
> > bottoms but also "displacement hulls" like the RPM which have rounded
> > bottoms. Is this a universal characteristic of ww boats? Do all ww
> > boats of whatever length ride up on their bow waves in this manner and
> > is it due to length or design? What are the fastest ww boats on
> > flatwater? Thanks.
>
> The real question is: Why would you want to use a whitewater boat on
> flat water? That's not what they're designed for. They're built for
> maximum control and maneuverability in rough water. Paddling one for any
> distance on flat water is not going to be any fun at all.
I guess I was thinking that I might get a shorter boat for smaller
rivers and that maybe an older (longer) ww boat might be a possible
choice, but if all ww boats have the same "twitchy" feel -- like they
are riding on top of a pillow of water -- then I guess that might not
be a good idea. Aren't there any downriver races that have both
whitewater and flatwater? If so what boat is used?
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 21:43:14
From: Bob P
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> I am a newbie and have mostly been paddling a long plastic boat on flat
>>> water, but recently I got to try out a few ww boats and have a basic
>>> question. My long boat of course coasts in a straight line when I stop
>>> paddling. To me it seems the ww boats ride up on their bow wave so that
>>> they have a great tendancy to turn and when you stop paddling you tend
>>> to veer off sideways and sort of slosh to a stop, and not just flat
>>> bottoms but also "displacement hulls" like the RPM which have rounded
>>> bottoms. Is this a universal characteristic of ww boats? Do all ww
>>> boats of whatever length ride up on their bow waves in this manner and
>>> is it due to length or design? What are the fastest ww boats on
>>> flatwater? Thanks.
>> The real question is: Why would you want to use a whitewater boat on
>> flat water? That's not what they're designed for. They're built for
>> maximum control and maneuverability in rough water. Paddling one for any
>> distance on flat water is not going to be any fun at all.
>
> I guess I was thinking that I might get a shorter boat for smaller
> rivers and that maybe an older (longer) ww boat might be a possible
> choice, but if all ww boats have the same "twitchy" feel -- like they
> are riding on top of a pillow of water -- then I guess that might not
> be a good idea. Aren't there any downriver races that have both
> whitewater and flatwater? If so what boat is used?
>
The Esquif Spark is probably the fastest WW boat in a straight line.
Not the best for heavy water though. In the Open Boat Slalom Nationals,
the Spark placed maybe 8 boats in the first 10. It's about 80%+ as fast
as my slalom C1 (which is very fast in a straight line). Unlike some of
the other WW boats, the Spark is 12' long.
In order to paddle it in a straight line, you're going to have to learn
a good J stroke though.
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 15:26:45
From: Michael Daly
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
> Aren't there any downriver races that have both
> whitewater and flatwater? If so what boat is used?
>
Downriver, aka wildwater, racing kayaks. Tippy, but they track better. Not for
beginners.
<http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/wildwater >
Mike
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 12:01:06
From: John Fereira
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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Michael Daly <michaeldaly@foo.bar > wrote in
news:G96dnZWyU-weZBvYnZ2dnUVZ_tninZ2d@magma.ca:
> galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Aren't there any downriver races that have both
>> whitewater and flatwater? If so what boat is used?
>>
>
> Downriver, aka wildwater, racing kayaks. Tippy, but they track better.
> Not for beginners.
>
> <http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/wildwater>
Prijon and Perception used to (maybe still do) make a poly downriver boat.
I paddled the Prijon version a couple of times and it was indeed tippy and
did track better. In fact, I found it more difficult to turn than most
"touring" kayaks about the same length.
BTW, I found a real good video on you tube of a downriver racing boat in
action. http://youtube.com/watch?v=2RbcCON6_74#
>
> Mike
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 18:04:51
From: Brian Nystrom
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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galt_57@hotmail.com wrote:
> I am a newbie and have mostly been paddling a long plastic boat on flat
> water, but recently I got to try out a few ww boats and have a basic
> question. My long boat of course coasts in a straight line when I stop
> paddling. To me it seems the ww boats ride up on their bow wave so that
> they have a great tendancy to turn and when you stop paddling you tend
> to veer off sideways and sort of slosh to a stop, and not just flat
> bottoms but also "displacement hulls" like the RPM which have rounded
> bottoms. Is this a universal characteristic of ww boats? Do all ww
> boats of whatever length ride up on their bow waves in this manner and
> is it due to length or design? What are the fastest ww boats on
> flatwater? Thanks.
The real question is: Why would you want to use a whitewater boat on
flat water? That's not what they're designed for. They're built for
maximum control and maneuverability in rough water. Paddling one for any
distance on flat water is not going to be any fun at all.
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 22:52:41
From: Cyli
Subject: Re: Length of boat or ww boat characteristic?
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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:04:51 GMT, Brian Nystrom
<brian.nystrom@verizon.net > wrote:
>
>The real question is: Why would you want to use a whitewater boat on
>flat water? That's not what they're designed for. They're built for
>maximum control and maneuverability in rough water. Paddling one for any
>distance on flat water is not going to be any fun at all.
I've done that. When I decided I wasn't going to be a whitewater
boater, I didn't want to give up my Perception Dancer, so I used it
for flat. With some experience and patience, you can paddle on the
flat quite nicely with one. And carry enough in it for a few days
camping, if you don't mind bungieing a few things on the deck.
It's really good for backwaters and swampy stuff. You get into a
bunch of sunken trees and you can run the bow up onto the trunk, reach
out to the sides and sort of do a boat and body pushup to get over it
all. I got into places along the river with that kayak that I'd never
have seen with a canoe or even a recreational kayak.
--
r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
http://www.visi.com/~cyli
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