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Main
Date: 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22
From: JWH 2004
Subject: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
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A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/photokayak5/regis_fait_du_kayak1.mpeg
Yikes...
JWH 2005
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Date: 10 Jan 2005 03:38:00
From: Tinkerntom
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
Rick wrote:
> Melissa wrote:
> ...stuff deleted
> >
> > That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
> > circumstances, <snip>
Tinkerntom wrote:
Most comment from around the web is that this is an edited clip. Is it
possible? I suppose, but none of the seakayakers I have been in contact
with have experienced this or anything close. Probably more of a
diservice to the paddling community. We have too many wonderful things
to experience and share, to be considered foolhardy for exposing
ourselves to such a tremendous risk. There are enough true risks, that
we can be equiped and trained for, without dramatizing something we
don't need to deal with.
Apparently this clip was circulated a few years back, and as any good
cyber legend reappears from time to time, and is debunked, to reappear.
Actually a Powerade ad. and includes editing, and not good editing.
I have watched this a number of times, and thought about my experience
with cameras.
I mainly considered the focus of the camera before the Orca, and then
notice that the Orca comes up in focus between the unfocused kayaks. At
the distance this video was shot, most camcorders would be shooting at
an infinite setting inorder to focus the Orca, if in focus at all. So
the kayaks should have been in focus as well as the Orca.
Also the lighting on the Orca is much to bright, unless there was a
very local break in the clouds for the sun to shine through, at that
very instant.
The movement, and point of recovery of the kayaker also seems out of
place. To say nothing about a 5 or 10 ton Orca landing on you would
break your kayak, and probably your back, so that recovery would
require more than a good roll, try stem cell implants maybe.
Now having written this I can put it to rest as far as I am concerned.
Sorry to have bothered the rest of you again, since most seem to have
previously determined it not worth the time to consider. TnT
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Date: 11 Jan 2005 01:16:34
From: Robert Haston
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
I've paddled with Orcas for about 5 hours once, they are just like dolphins,
they are keenly aware of you and avoid you. I remember paddling home alone
back from the Christmas light parade with my 240 LED lights aglow. A
dolphin surfaced alongside me as close as one ever had before, then did it
twelve times in more. He was sure curious.
And it sure seems improbable that a kayaker hit hard enough to be completely
submerged for some time, then pop out and only need an Eskimo roll.
But all that being said, the combination of a really rambunctious orca, a
whale watching tour, and a really good kayaker isn't impossible.
As to the risk, that isn't that much. I was sure far more afraid of the big
cabin cruisers blasting about Puget Sound than the whales. Hardly any gave
me a sign that they even saw me, much less a tiny 10 degree cut towards my
stern. I had to maneuver in the waves and be ready to sprint at the last
second. I remember being out in the middle of a 3-4 mile reach and the wind
kicked up very hard and some jerk comes blasting right at me, so now I'm
breaching, bracing, and backing in big waves and he blasts right by. I
guess he figured if I was good enough to be out in rough seas, I was good
enough to eat his big wake, too.
"Tinkerntom" <tnksng@qwest.net > wrote in message
news:1105357080.678853.271910@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Rick wrote:
>> Melissa wrote:
>> ...stuff deleted
>> >
>> > That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
>> > circumstances, <snip>
>
> Tinkerntom wrote:
>
> Most comment from around the web is that this is an edited clip. Is it
> possible? I suppose, but none of the seakayakers I have been in contact
> with have experienced this or anything close. Probably more of a
> diservice to the paddling community. We have too many wonderful things
> to experience and share, to be considered foolhardy for exposing
> ourselves to such a tremendous risk. There are enough true risks, that
> we can be equiped and trained for, without dramatizing something we
> don't need to deal with.
>
> Apparently this clip was circulated a few years back, and as any good
> cyber legend reappears from time to time, and is debunked, to reappear.
> Actually a Powerade ad. and includes editing, and not good editing.
>
> I have watched this a number of times, and thought about my experience
> with cameras.
>
> I mainly considered the focus of the camera before the Orca, and then
> notice that the Orca comes up in focus between the unfocused kayaks. At
> the distance this video was shot, most camcorders would be shooting at
> an infinite setting inorder to focus the Orca, if in focus at all. So
> the kayaks should have been in focus as well as the Orca.
>
> Also the lighting on the Orca is much to bright, unless there was a
> very local break in the clouds for the sun to shine through, at that
> very instant.
>
> The movement, and point of recovery of the kayaker also seems out of
> place. To say nothing about a 5 or 10 ton Orca landing on you would
> break your kayak, and probably your back, so that recovery would
> require more than a good roll, try stem cell implants maybe.
>
> Now having written this I can put it to rest as far as I am concerned.
> Sorry to have bothered the rest of you again, since most seem to have
> previously determined it not worth the time to consider. TnT
>
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Date: 10 Jan 2005 14:13:30
From: Melissa
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hi Tinkerntom,
On 10 Jan 2005 03:38:00 -0800, you wrote:
> Actually a Powerade ad. and includes editing, and not good editing.
Just to beat this poor dead horse as mercilessly as possible, here's a
link to what seems like the complete Powerade commercial:
http://www.jengajam.com/r/Powerade-Advert-MPEG
- --
Melissa
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wpVfbHqwSIpKmWWCyq1rnX0=
=oMCd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Date: 04 Jan 2005 07:35:40
From: greybeard
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
Wilko wrote:
> Melissa wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Hi JWH 2004,
> >
> > On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22 GMT, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
> >
> >
> > While there are always good reasons to have a reliable roll, this
> > particular video is said to be a fake that was used in an
> > advertisement some time ago. I've seen this video posted by
several
> > people over the past couple of years, but I've never seen reliable
> > source information about its origins.
>
> Isn't there something about it on snopes.com?
>
> > That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
> > circumstances, I've paddled in the midst of breaching Orca and Gray
> > Whales countless times, and I've never seen a whale, breaching or
> > otherwise, upset a kayak. They've always seemed acutely aware of
the
> > boats around them, and while they will come very close and interact
> > with boaters, their movements around the boats have always been
> > precise and graceful.
> >
> > Go ahead and learn to roll, but let's not give the whales an
> > undeserved bad reputation! :-)
>
> Yeah, I also thought that just looked fishy (pardon the pun) when a
> paddling buddy sent me the video clip. Still, considering the way
mother
> nature just showed in Asia what can happen when it unleashes some of
its
> power, I'm not surprised by anything bad happening to humans anymore.
>
> Wilko
>
> --
> Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
> Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
> ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
> http://wilko.webzone.ru/
I saw the video from home in the evening but could not access it the
next day. what probably happened was the server was taking to many
hits as the word spread about the video and it was removed by the
system adminstrator to relieve the bandwidth demand. Since the
originator had protected the mpeg, I couldn't download it to keep. on
the topic of being a fake - probably not. I looked close at the kayak
/ water interaction and the resurfacce / role sections. the scene
looked internally consistent, i.e. there were splashes where there
should have been, the kayaks moved in synch with the waves, there were
no fuzzed spots where the image was repaired. somebody like PIXAR
could have faked it but I wouldn't expect an amateur to have the
finesses required.
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| | |
Date: 05 Jan 2005 03:47:34
From: JWH 2004
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
I do have the video saved, if you'd like it, let me know and I'll send it
off.....
There is an ad for Mountain Dew (I think) that uses a faked scene like
this.... This isn't that ad....
JWH 2005
in article 1104852940.722624.55440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "greybeard"
<tlegore@3-cities.com > Made the following statement in a post to this
newsgroup 1/4/05 11:35 AM:
>
> Wilko wrote:
>> Melissa wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> Hi JWH 2004,
>>>
>>> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22 GMT, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
>>>
>>>
>>> While there are always good reasons to have a reliable roll, this
>>> particular video is said to be a fake that was used in an
>>> advertisement some time ago. I've seen this video posted by
> several
>>> people over the past couple of years, but I've never seen reliable
>>> source information about its origins.
>>
>> Isn't there something about it on snopes.com?
>>
>>> That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
>>> circumstances, I've paddled in the midst of breaching Orca and Gray
>>> Whales countless times, and I've never seen a whale, breaching or
>>> otherwise, upset a kayak. They've always seemed acutely aware of
> the
>>> boats around them, and while they will come very close and interact
>>> with boaters, their movements around the boats have always been
>>> precise and graceful.
>>>
>>> Go ahead and learn to roll, but let's not give the whales an
>>> undeserved bad reputation! :-)
>>
>> Yeah, I also thought that just looked fishy (pardon the pun) when a
>> paddling buddy sent me the video clip. Still, considering the way
> mother
>> nature just showed in Asia what can happen when it unleashes some of
> its
>> power, I'm not surprised by anything bad happening to humans anymore.
>>
>> Wilko
>>
>> --
>> Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
>> Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
>> ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
>> http://wilko.webzone.ru/
>
> I saw the video from home in the evening but could not access it the
> next day. what probably happened was the server was taking to many
> hits as the word spread about the video and it was removed by the
> system adminstrator to relieve the bandwidth demand. Since the
> originator had protected the mpeg, I couldn't download it to keep. on
> the topic of being a fake - probably not. I looked close at the kayak
> / water interaction and the resurfacce / role sections. the scene
> looked internally consistent, i.e. there were splashes where there
> should have been, the kayaks moved in synch with the waves, there were
> no fuzzed spots where the image was repaired. somebody like PIXAR
> could have faked it but I wouldn't expect an amateur to have the
> finesses required.
>
|
| | | |
Date: 09 Jan 2005 15:49:02
From: Krueger
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
If possible, please pass on the video. Have a friend who wants to learn sea
kayaking, but doesn't seem to understand my insistence on the importance of
safety issues. I.e.: roll, wet entry, don't paddle alone.......besides, from
what you all have to say, the video sounds interesting
Carol
krueger@humboldt1.com
"JWH 2004" <edgekayakSPAM@eastlink.ca > wrote in message
news:BE00DB94.10BA0%edgekayakSPAM@eastlink.ca...
> I do have the video saved, if you'd like it, let me know and I'll send it
> off.....
>
> There is an ad for Mountain Dew (I think) that uses a faked scene like
> this.... This isn't that ad....
>
>
> JWH 2005
>
>
>
> in article 1104852940.722624.55440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com,
"greybeard"
> <tlegore@3-cities.com> Made the following statement in a post to this
> newsgroup 1/4/05 11:35 AM:
>
> >
> > Wilko wrote:
> >> Melissa wrote:
> >>
> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>> Hash: SHA1
> >>>
> >>> Hi JWH 2004,
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22 GMT, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> While there are always good reasons to have a reliable roll, this
> >>> particular video is said to be a fake that was used in an
> >>> advertisement some time ago. I've seen this video posted by
> > several
> >>> people over the past couple of years, but I've never seen reliable
> >>> source information about its origins.
> >>
> >> Isn't there something about it on snopes.com?
> >>
> >>> That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
> >>> circumstances, I've paddled in the midst of breaching Orca and Gray
> >>> Whales countless times, and I've never seen a whale, breaching or
> >>> otherwise, upset a kayak. They've always seemed acutely aware of
> > the
> >>> boats around them, and while they will come very close and interact
> >>> with boaters, their movements around the boats have always been
> >>> precise and graceful.
> >>>
> >>> Go ahead and learn to roll, but let's not give the whales an
> >>> undeserved bad reputation! :-)
> >>
> >> Yeah, I also thought that just looked fishy (pardon the pun) when a
> >> paddling buddy sent me the video clip. Still, considering the way
> > mother
> >> nature just showed in Asia what can happen when it unleashes some of
> > its
> >> power, I'm not surprised by anything bad happening to humans anymore.
> >>
> >> Wilko
> >>
> >> --
> >> Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
> >> Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
> >> ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
> >> http://wilko.webzone.ru/
> >
> > I saw the video from home in the evening but could not access it the
> > next day. what probably happened was the server was taking to many
> > hits as the word spread about the video and it was removed by the
> > system adminstrator to relieve the bandwidth demand. Since the
> > originator had protected the mpeg, I couldn't download it to keep. on
> > the topic of being a fake - probably not. I looked close at the kayak
> > / water interaction and the resurfacce / role sections. the scene
> > looked internally consistent, i.e. there were splashes where there
> > should have been, the kayaks moved in synch with the waves, there were
> > no fuzzed spots where the image was repaired. somebody like PIXAR
> > could have faked it but I wouldn't expect an amateur to have the
> > finesses required.
> >
>
|
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Date: 09 Jan 2005 17:13:09
From: Melissa
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hi Carol,
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:49:02 -0800, you wrote:
> Have a friend who wants to learn sea kayaking, but doesn't seem to
> understand my insistence on the importance of safety issues. I.e.:
> roll, wet entry, don't paddle alone...
Here's something that might help to inspire your friend with regards
to rolling, bracing, etc...
Learning to roll isn't just an "advanced recovery technique". As far
as I'm concerned, it's something that should be learned as early as
possible (very shortly after basic paddle handling), because once
someone can reliably roll, he/she will have the confidence to push
the envelope a bit in terms of the kinds of conditions they're
willing to get into. This will accelerate the refining of several
essential techniques that will enhance both safety and the general
enjoyment of paddling.
I'm pretty sure I saved a copy of that Orca video a year or two ago,
but my hard drive searches have so far come up with nothing. I do
know someone who has a copy (and he knows where it is!), so I'll ask
him for another copy, which I'll then be happy to send along to you
(unless someone else comes up with it before I do).
As I mentioned in my earlier post though, I've been told that the
video in question is a fake. I really don't know one way or the
other, but as I also mentioned, there are enough reasons to learn to
roll without the need of a "scary" video for inspiration (including
the fact that rolling is just fun to do, and can be very refreshing
on a hot day!).
In addition to actual instruction and practice, there are several
good demonstration and instructional videos available to supplement
in-the-water rolling practice. Being a sea kayaker with an interest
in traditional Greenland techniques, I really like this video
featuring Maligiaq Johnsen Padilla (a native Greenlander, and overall
winner of the last 6 or so Greenland Paddling Championships):
"Rolling With Maligiaq"
http://home.earthlink.net/~jheath1821/
Scroll down the page for ordering information.
"Grace Under Pressure" is another classic, and even though the
emphasis is on whitewater, it's a good video for sea kayakers as
well. This video is sold online in several places, so you can just
google on the title and find it somewhere.
- --
Melissa
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=PeOP
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|
| |
Date: 03 Jan 2005 11:36:57
From: Melissa
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hi JWH 2004,
On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22 GMT, you wrote:
> A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
While there are always good reasons to have a reliable roll, this
particular video is said to be a fake that was used in an
advertisement some time ago. I've seen this video posted by several
people over the past couple of years, but I've never seen reliable
source information about its origins.
That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
circumstances, I've paddled in the midst of breaching Orca and Gray
Whales countless times, and I've never seen a whale, breaching or
otherwise, upset a kayak. They've always seemed acutely aware of the
boats around them, and while they will come very close and interact
with boaters, their movements around the boats have always been
precise and graceful.
Go ahead and learn to roll, but let's not give the whales an
undeserved bad reputation! :-)
- --
Melissa
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=j7Qd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|
| | |
Date: 05 Jan 2005 06:07:11
From: Rick
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
Melissa wrote:
...stuff deleted
>
> That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
> circumstances, I've paddled in the midst of breaching Orca and Gray
> Whales countless times, and I've never seen a whale, breaching or
> otherwise, upset a kayak. They've always seemed acutely aware of the
> boats around them, and while they will come very close and interact
> with boaters, their movements around the boats have always been
> precise and graceful.
>
Melissa,
An earlier edition of sea kayaker (probably 8-9 years back) contained a
letter to the editor about a paddle in Magdalena Bay during the breeding
season for grey whales. The writer described how he managed to
inadvertantly get between momma and calf. Needless to say, the damage to
the boat left the writer with a greater need for an efficient crawl
stroke than a roll.
Perhaps someone has that letter somewhere in their collection?
Rick
PS: My understanding is that, for economic reasons, it is difficult to
venture to Magdalena Bay without paying for a guide, nowadays. I presume
this may also provide some benefit to the whales and limit how many
times such events occur, though this is probably wishful thinking on my
part.
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Jan 2005 23:36:10
From: Mike B
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
Unless one is just puttin round flat water in a rec boat for fun, everyone
should learn and practice bracing and a basic roll. Old, young, kids, taught
them all. Not hard to learn, and sea kayaks are alot easier to roll than
white water boats, at least in my experience. BTW, females often make better
students, most guys at first think they can power their way up.
"Rick" <rjd9999@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:juLCd.859$Pm6.166@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Melissa wrote:
> ...stuff deleted
> >
> > That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
> > circumstances, I've paddled in the midst of breaching Orca and Gray
> > Whales countless times, and I've never seen a whale, breaching or
> > otherwise, upset a kayak. They've always seemed acutely aware of the
> > boats around them, and while they will come very close and interact
> > with boaters, their movements around the boats have always been
> > precise and graceful.
> >
>
> Melissa,
>
> An earlier edition of sea kayaker (probably 8-9 years back) contained a
> letter to the editor about a paddle in Magdalena Bay during the breeding
> season for grey whales. The writer described how he managed to
> inadvertantly get between momma and calf. Needless to say, the damage to
> the boat left the writer with a greater need for an efficient crawl
> stroke than a roll.
>
> Perhaps someone has that letter somewhere in their collection?
>
> Rick
>
> PS: My understanding is that, for economic reasons, it is difficult to
> venture to Magdalena Bay without paying for a guide, nowadays. I presume
> this may also provide some benefit to the whales and limit how many
> times such events occur, though this is probably wishful thinking on my
> part.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Jan 2005 23:44:03
From: Wilko
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
Melissa wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi JWH 2004,
>
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22 GMT, you wrote:
>
>
>>A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
>
>
> While there are always good reasons to have a reliable roll, this
> particular video is said to be a fake that was used in an
> advertisement some time ago. I've seen this video posted by several
> people over the past couple of years, but I've never seen reliable
> source information about its origins.
Isn't there something about it on snopes.com?
> That said, though anything is possible given the right - or wrong -
> circumstances, I've paddled in the midst of breaching Orca and Gray
> Whales countless times, and I've never seen a whale, breaching or
> otherwise, upset a kayak. They've always seemed acutely aware of the
> boats around them, and while they will come very close and interact
> with boaters, their movements around the boats have always been
> precise and graceful.
>
> Go ahead and learn to roll, but let's not give the whales an
> undeserved bad reputation! :-)
Yeah, I also thought that just looked fishy (pardon the pun) when a
paddling buddy sent me the video clip. Still, considering the way mother
nature just showed in Asia what can happen when it unleashes some of its
power, I'm not surprised by anything bad happening to humans anymore.
Wilko
--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jan 2005 10:03:26
From: Melissa
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hi Wilko,
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 23:44:03 +0100, you wrote:
> Isn't there something about it on snopes.com?
You may have seen this by now over at r.b.p.touring, but if you
haven't, here it is:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/kayak.asp
- --
Melissa
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=ssR7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Jan 2005 21:59:44
From: Wilko
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
Melissa wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Wilko,
>
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 23:44:03 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>>Isn't there something about it on snopes.com?
>
>
> You may have seen this by now over at r.b.p.touring, but if you
> haven't, here it is:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/kayak.asp
Thanks Melissa, I hadn't seen this, but I suspected that there would be.
I don't frequent RBP.T much any more, so thanks for the link! :-)
Wilko
--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/
|
| |
Date: 03 Jan 2005 09:32:48
From:
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
|
Drew Dalgleish wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22 GMT, JWH 2004
<edgekayakSPAM@eastlink.ca >
> wrote:
>
> >A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
> >
> >http://perso.wanadoo.fr/photokayak5/regis_fait_du_kayak1.mpeg
> >
> >
> >Yikes...
> >
> >JWH 2005
> >
> I just got an error file. My french isn't good enough to figure it
> out.
I saw it last night. Spectacular footage! I sent the link to friends,
but one emailed back this morning that he could not open the file. I
hope someone can find a fix.
JV
|
| |
Date: 03 Jan 2005 13:15:48
From: Drew Dalgleish
Subject: Re: A short seakayak video (holy.........!!!!)
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On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:56:22 GMT, JWH 2004 <edgekayakSPAM@eastlink.ca >
wrote:
>A GREAT!!! reason to learn a solid roll.....!!!!!!
>
>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/photokayak5/regis_fait_du_kayak1.mpeg
>
>
>Yikes...
>
>JWH 2005
>
I just got an error file. My french isn't good enough to figure it
out.
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